When is looting OK?

Morals of Looting

Here is an interesting moral question: when is looting OK?

Try to think from the point of view of a disaster survivor wandering your neighborhood. What if your friends and neighbors are tired and hungry, perhaps attempting to support their family but having little or nothing of their own with which to do so?
Or picture yourself in a disaster area with no relief in sight for days to come. Should you walk into someone else’s home and obtain food and survival supplies for your family? Or should you go without while all those supplies go unused right next door? Where do you draw the line in helping yourself to other people’s property? What if you and your family are starving to death while your next door neighbor is boiling a big pot of beef stew in his back yard?

When you think about it, the answers are not all black and white. I think that anybody, no matter how upstanding, could turn looter under the right conditions.

If you know without a doubt that the products will be thrown out after the disaster... I see no reason why you couldn't loot it. According to law it's alright to loot if it's essential for your survival but what if you loot because you know it will eventually be essential for your survival? hmmm...

[riskey58]

I really don't believe in looting, but if it is for your survival think that it is ok.

[Taggart]

I think that looting to preserve your family's lives is to be expected.

I can imagine that there would be problems down the line for someone who had a considerably larger cache of supplies than their neighbors.

[ZammaJannan]

Looting for survival is morally acceptable. It would be not be acceptable however to take something that someone else was using to survive.

[Twiceshy]

Looting is a necessary evil during disasters.

Carrying out a television shouldn't fall under that "disaster" category, and should probably be called something other than looting.

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[ACCER]

Food and water is fine as long as it's looting and not taking from someone else.

It's never ok to loot a television.

[Urs]

The tongue in cheek answer is: Whenever you won't get caught.

I agree with ACCER that it's never ok to loot a tv.

But food, water, medicine....stuff like that, I can't really fault a person.

[winston smith]

I have a plan for local door to door "excersions" if my cache fails or runs low.

I have mapped the area out to about 10 miles in each direction
1)supermarkets
2)supply depots/ wholesalers
3)military bases
4)mom and pop stores
5)homes (checked out while exploring the other options)

essential Food and meds for the kids, even a military surplus warehouse with the "catchment" area

[Urs]

I think Winston has the right idea. I have a similar list specific to my location of course. You have got to know the area you live in!

[doobie]

I have everything I need pre-looted by using these strange green pieces of paper. I've also used said green paper to obtain these pieces of metal that throw lead long distances and accurately to protect said pre-looted material. If SHTF I'll be staying inside and quit for 2-4 weeks.

[winston smith]

Originally Posted by doobie

I have everything I need pre-looted by using these strange green pieces of paper. I've also used said green paper to obtain these pieces of metal that throw lead long distances and accurately to protect said pre-looted material. If SHTF I'll be staying inside and quit for 2-4 weeks.

Amen brother

I have a "stash" for a few weeks to months depending how we can convince others to "GO AWAY"

But looking further ahead than the Immediate phase of TSHTF.

My kids (3 under 4) take priority over and above anyone .

hope for the best BUT prepare for the worst.

I pray that I will never need to follow through any of these plans but there are there IF

Some of these responses seem so wrong, one guy is already scoping his neighbors houses, nice.
It's never OK when you are the one being looted. If you prepare properly, it's highly unlikely that you would need much besides specific medicines. The tone of some of the responses reinforces my feeling that American morality has fallen to the level that Americans aren't stocking up on firearms and ammo to defend Liberty, as much as to protect themselves from one another. When you enter someone elses home in a survival situation, there is a high probability you will die there.

[winston smith]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Some of these responses seem so wrong, one guy is already scoping his neighbors houses, nice.
It's never OK when you are the one being looted. If you prepare properly, it's highly unlikely that you would need much besides specific medicines. The tone of some of the responses reinforces my feeling that American morality has fallen to the level that Americans aren't stocking up on firearms and ammo to defend Liberty, as much as to protect themselves from one another. When you enter someone elses home in a survival situation, there is a high probability you will die there.

Fail to plan, plan to fail

The option there is for long term, high casulty pandemic or worse case, there is a difference between "looting" a empty house and an occupied house

I have prepared to bail out my neighbours kids at least (why should they suffer) coz many around here have food for today only.

foresight and planning is NOT a crime

[Frankie]

Winston,
Planning and preparing can be a crime. Of course that's because some governments have redefined crime and created crimes to suit their purposes.

[angelicwriter]

I think depending on the situation it's okay to loot. If it's between life and death I would definitely loot. But most likely it would be my last resort.

[winston smith]

Originally Posted by angelicwriter

I think depending on the situation it's okay to loot. If it's between life and death I would definitely loot. But most likely it would be my last resort.

this is my view and why it's LAST on my list

Originally Posted by Frankie

Winston,
Planning and preparing can be a crime. Of course that's because some governments have redefined crime and created crimes to suit their purposes.

when freedom is outlawed, only outlaws will be FREE

[pr0t0c0n]

I was in New Orleans After Katrina hit , every one was looting even the police where walking out of wal-mart with big screen tvs knowing they didn't have any power.I talked to one guy that posted up in the second story window of his house with a 30-06 popping heads as the looters came up the block.Ive talked to numerous people that had to shoot looters to keep them out of their house.

[KYOT]

From a purely legalistic standpoint, virtually never, for the common citizen. However, law enforcment, judges, and ultimately, juries, have a lot of lattitude here. In the wild west, and in rural areas to this day, it was common to come upon an ababdoned, or empty house, take what you need, and leave payment, or promisory note. This would bode very well in court, if it were done today. In Alaska, in most areas, subtinance hunting is allowed. This allows a person to hunt, or fish, outside of seasons, if there is no other way to provide. But you had better not be hunting when you are not truely in need, or they will toast you cajones. In a way, this is "looting". The state of Alaska has granted wide latitude in survival circumstances, not just in areas of hunting. With a good lawyer, in the lower 48, this can provide a defense for sustinance looting, and hunting/fishing. The legal point remains, that taking goods or services without offering payment would constitute theft. Leaving a payment, or promisory, creates a grey area which could get you out of trouble in a crisis, either survival, or legal. These statements apply only to normal citizens. If you are part of law enforcement, crisis/emergency services, and so on, you can pretty much take what you need. THIS ALSO APPLIES, IF A COMMON CITIZEN IS DIRECTED TO DO SO BY LAW ENFORCEMENT, EMERGENCY SERVICES AND SO ON. The obvious conclusion you may reach by this, is, if you were to ask law enforcement for permission to take something you need, they may well direct you to do so. If there is no opportunity to do this, at least leave a note, and or payment. This would very likely get you out of hot water later, or at least into warm water . This does not apply to grabbing a Wii out of the Best Buy.
I know this legalistic treatice is not what most folks are looking for on a survival blog, but consider one thing... Think of the worst crisis you can remember, in these United States. Katrina, Watts riots, St. Hellens, The Donner Party, and so on... Did the crisis eventually end? yep! And, were there prices to be paid, when things got back to normal? Yep! The nursing home in Katrina that had some nurses give lethal injections to some residents, because they knew they would die a horrible death otherwise, what happened to them? They are in prison Watts riots, were looters prosecuted? You bet.
This brings me to the point I believe we all can agree on, or at least I hope so. That is why we, as survivalists, prepare. The "survivalists" (emphasis on quotes) who just get some guns, and scope out what they plan to steal, are not survivalists. They are either sick, or watch entirely too many movies! As a survivalist, in a societal setting, we remain a society, even in times of crisis. Do societies break down? Absolutely, and that is why it is incumbant on you, as responsible survivalists, to either take care of your forseeable needs, in the event of breakdown, or band together with neighbors, friends, or fellow survivalists, to provide for those needs, SO THAT YOU ARE NOT FORCED TO LOOT! And, it is wise to provide for your protection, of what you have prepared with, and those you are protecting, to BLOW AWAY ANYBODY WHO WOULD TAKE, OR MORE PROPERLY, LOOT, WHAT YOU HAVE HAD THE FORESIGHT TO PREPARE WITH!
In other words, the golden rule. And if your concept of being a survivalist is to grab your guns, and take what you need when TSHTF, you would do well to walk a wide circle around me, and mine. If you are in need, I will try to help, but if it is your plan to take it by force, I will smoke your arse!

[heretoday]

I think HerbalPagan has the right idea. I could follow those guidelines and not feel morally, karmically at fault.
I didn't know cops were looting in New Orleans. Perhaps they were only taking TVs for "evidence"?

[KYOT]

I was not referring to cops looting in Katrina, although I'm sure it happened. The point I was making, is that in cases where martial law is in effect, either "de jure" or "de facto", they can bust a lock to grab a fire extinguisher, or yank a passerby out of a car and comandeer it. In New Orleans, they brought a degree of order to the cleaning out of grocery stores, which was a necessity, in order to feed those who remained and completely lacked supplies. They could not stand by and guard padlocked groceries while cut off survivors starved and died for lack of supplies.
If after order is restored, the owner of said grocery wanted to raise cain or prosecute to recoup losses, he would not pursue those that were directed to take the stuff by the local law enforcement. His only recourse would be to try to recoup from the city, whose cops told folks to go ahead and get something.
KYOT

[KYOT]

I just wanted to include a couple of my previous posts from the "Guide to looting post SHTF" thread:
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Perspective

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I do not claim to be above looting, if all else fails. But one perspective to consider...
Lots of us that frequent these pages have substantial arsenals, and might be inclined to put them to use, if we found ourselves being, .... well..... Looted!
I also doubt that even the most highly moraled soul would likewise, not be beyond looting, if it came to survival of their family. There was a wonderful Twilight Zone on just this subject. How quickly good friendships and neighbors are strained, when put to the "survival" test. I believe our willingness to percieve the potential needs, prepare in advance, and thus, preclude the need to loot, is what distinguishes most true survivalists from oportunistic nut cases whose planning for survival/disaster scenarios consists of laying in an arsenal, and locating victims to rip off, when the SHTF.
I read an excellent article in the old Americal Survival Guide, back in the '90s that relates this well. Consider a neighbor and friend, who you tell to buy house insurance, but instead of spending on that, he spends his spare cash on a boat. Well, his house burns down, and he shows up wanting you to put him and his family up, as they now have no home. you say, "I told you to buy insurance, but you bought a boat. I do not owe you a home because you were stupid, and did not prepare for disaster". "But hey, I said you could use the boat", he says. You get the picture. This is no different than somebody who looks around and spends their money trading in a two year old car for a new one, and then shows up at your door when SHTF, or worse yet, shows up to loot your cache of survival goods.

Guess what I am trying to say is, good preparation, and looting becomes largely unneeded.

One other consideration. In a disaster, when marshall law is declared, the law enforcement, as it exists, has the ability and authority to loot, legally. Before you grab your bolt cutters, check with them. And, if all else fails, and you are forced to loot, if you were to leave a note, and payment, that would be a defense, assuming that order is restored, at some point, and as it has, pretty much for the entire history of mankind...
My 2 cents
Wiley KYOT


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And be sure to get...

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Couple of years ago, we had 9 days without power in this part of Kansas. Three things that simply could not be found, generators, flashlights, and batteries, nowhere to be found, in the nearest town of 50,000. Glad I already had these, bought with money my neighbors likely spent on new cars and boats.....
Dummy me, I left my genrator by the power pole, for a couple of weeks after the power was back, as the weather was still lousy, and I live way out in the boonies. No worries, right? My neighbor stole it, while I was at church. I let the sheriffs office deal with it. They took tire impressions, pictures of the tracks from his trailer to my house, and had no doubt whatsoever who did it. County DA did not elect to prosecute it. Since I try to live my religion, he is still breathing, and that is the only reason he is still breathing. However, he used the only free pass he gets from me, and he knows it. I'll let God settle that one.
However, if he, or anybody else tries to "fool me twice" the results will be different. Looting is, understandably, a sensitive subject to me.
KYOT