The 223-5.56x45 as a survival defense round

[KYOT]

I just finished banging my head till I'm dizzy (which honestly does not take a lot of banging) trying to convince a friend why his choice of 223/556 for a defense/survival round, well, sucks! Thought I might post it, for those who are, or have dealt with this decision, while trying to build a survival armory of sorts. Don't get me wrong, I love the 223 for what it was designed for, namely shooting varmints of 10-40 lbs (2.6-18 kilos) at ranges up to 400 meters. The problem I have is with folks who figure that since this seems to be the chosen round for the militaries of the "free" world, lots of folks figure, vis a vis, it must be good for home defense and law enforcement. WRONG!!!!
Here, is why... And bear in mind, I own, and enjoy a number of these pea shooters in 223!
This is a paste to my misguided neighbor/friend, with a cc to my son in law:

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M4 carbine, 16” (legal length) $409 plus you need a lower receiver which can be had for $90-120. Then, for your carry handle which is of questionable value, $35. Total is under 550.

http://akpartskits.com/cart/index.ph...d18169679c2916



Take that, purchase either a 6.8 hyper accurate bison arms upper for $400, and you can change it to an actually dangerous weapon(from an irritant J ) in about 30 seconds. You can also get 7.62x39 AK round uppers for around 300 that will do the same, but without the accuracy. These shoot around 2-3.5” at 100 yds, but at least these two rounds will make it through a car windshield, which a 556 will not do, even with a 20”, unless you are shooting AP not available to civilians. Don’t take my word for it, check the web, the 556 designed for shooting prairie dogs, not surprisingly, will not make it though a car windshield, It will spiderweb it, and the lead goes through as a liquid. You might at least blind them, if they are not wearing safety glasses!

You will note, the AR15 that I have in 556 is set up to do what the 556 was designed to do, shoot varmints that weigh under 40 pounds at ranges up to 450 yds. For that, with projectiles that are not available to the military, due to Geneva convention, it is one of the best varmint rounds. My ar10 243 stretches that to 500-600 yds, and will bust animals up to mule deer with style!



Think about this, and really think about it hard… Why, would all but about 10 states (all southern states with deer that average around 120lbs, like texas) consider the 223/556 inadequate, and inhumane to kill a deer, or ANY large game, even with the very finest, whiz bang space age slugs in existence? Why does our military still insist on using this varmint round to kill soldiers who have body armor, vehicles, and a lot more than fur to protect them? Reason, THEY DO NOT WANT, OR EXPECT THE 223 TO KILL SOLDIERS!!!!! Our military doctrine is to INJURE!!, which requires 2-3 soldiers to carry a wounded troop. Same reason our grenades use wire, and #9 steel shot as shrapnel. They are designed to WOUND, not kill a 180 lb target! That is US military doctrine. This is of possibly debatable merit, in a military environment. For personal defense, I personally have no interest in wounding my opponent. I want to put them down, fast, with one shot, while they hide behind a wall, or a car, or a tree, because their tactical training consists of watching Hollywood movies. These are the idots who hold their pistols sideways, because that is all they have ever seen!

Fish in a barrel, for me…


YOU ARE NOT A MILITARY UNIT! SHOOT TO KILL, NOT INJURE, OR IRRITATE, OR HARRASS! USE YOUR BRAIN!!! If you want to harass, buy pepper spray!



And why, are our special forces changing over to either 6.8, or 308? Reckon it is because they can’t get rifles chambered for 223?



Steve



Note to Coby, this is a message to a friend, TRYING to explain why the 223 is a laughable choice for self defense, although it may indeed be at least a marginally effective military round…

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Wiley KYOT

[ammogatherer]

For me it is about comfort, availability, compatability and resources. I know that most of my friends have 5.56mm weapons, ammo and equipment. I also feel comfortable with my AR because I've had it for so long and put many rounds down range with it. It has been an investment and a hobby. You make valid points about lethality, but that is why I have a handgun and a shotgun, too!

[ammogatherer]

I have seen a noticeable drop in ammo prices across the board (except .380 ACP, which is still at a premium!!!).

5.56mm (M855 steel core) went from a high of $.72/round to now seeing it as low as $.45/round and average $.55/round. Those using M193 (lead core) have it even better!


Good news, those ammo companies are churning out bullets. Demand wont be going down anytime soon- we've learned from this last scare to buy when it's affordable... Keep those barrels hot, patriots!

[KYOT]

Complete ammo is getting a lot better in availability. I still have to search a lot to locate primers, as I do quite a bit of reloading. Powder and projectiles are no problem. I heard a rumor that the major manufacturers were considering a move, and I am not sure if this is voluntary, or enforced, that in the future, primers would have a shelf life, to address hoarding.
Not really a worry for me, as for my tactical needs, I probably have emough 7.62x39 in tins to last till my grandchildren are old. 7.62x51, same same, as well as 9mm and 22. For big pistol, 45lc and 44mag, I recycle, and always keep at least 1-2k of each ready to go.
Bout the only stuff I need to lay in is 7mm mag, 243 and 223, and the latter is dirt cheap. Just picked up an LR243 ar10 dpms in 243, what a blast! I got it to thin out my namesake, the 'yotes. I normally decline shooting meat eaters on general principle, but they got my siamese tom cat, and now it's payback time. 243 with a 65gr v-max at 3925fps outa 'bout vaporize them!
And yes, I do appreciate the ar15, just put together a 24" stainless bull barrel kit that will hold 0.5 moa with finely tweaked handloads. I have a mini14 truck gun as well in 223. I just far prefer a good old fashioned akm with a falcon side folder for a bug out gun. Hard to argue with never having to clean (though of course I do) and complete, utter reliability. I have likely fired over 100k of ak, and never had a misfire that I could not attribute to bad ammo, bad mag, or poor assembly of the fire control group, which on 2 occasions allowed a pivot pin to walk out. All told, maybe, 20 misfires, out of at least 100,000 ain't bad! The ability to pound through bricks, cars, and telephone poles is kinda nice too!

[ammogatherer]

I hope the ammo manufacturers continue making rounds, and don't try to artificially inflate the prices due to "decreased" demand. There is still a demand from serious shooters, and I am sure the wonderful year of 2008- has interested many folks in marksmanship and firearms that were previously not consumers.

Do I regret paying $.60/round back in OCT/NOV/DEC 2008? I do not. But I sure am glad that there is a decrease in the price. I bought the green tip stuff. It was so hard to find, and my gun store sure did make a penny or two off of me... I'm seeing ammo retailers able to find entire pallets and lots of the stuff now, which will end up bringing my average price per round down to a more understandable level.

After reading your post either way you go .223 or 7.62x39 and so on. I believe that if you have to bugout the best for an arsenal is in .22lr. Here are some of my reasons for this:

1. The firearm is cheap ie Ruger1022 $250
2. Ammo supplies you can buy bricks of it for less then $20.00
3. The amount of ammo you would need for a survival situation is quite a bit.
4. You can use this ammo and extra guns and parts to barter with for things you might need.

I'm not saying that your wrong but unless you can stay hunkered down in your house for a long time? Or if you have plenty of fuel for a trunk to get you around? The .22lr has the lightest recoil anyone in the family can use. You can carry 5000 or more rounds in your gear and get both a handgun and rifle that shoots the same ammo. Lets not forget it is one of the most deadliest rounds ever made. Its not called the "assasination round" for no reason at all. And an added bonus is it is quite they can't return fire if they can't hear or see you.

[ammogatherer]

You made a very strong case for .22 LR. Many of us forget the caliber's strong suits such as sub sonic and cheap... which, in my mind, equates to less distance. But with most situations such as hunting and defense, most scenarios involve distances less than 100m.

.22LR is the perfect round for small game and harassment of belligerents (looters, etc). I'd use it to scare off or ding someone who I didn't want to kill.

.223/5.56mm adds a bit of distance and penetration of lightly armored objects (concrete and steel).

I'd use my 7.62+ if I needed to face a group of serious attackers.

Obviously, the "plans" are situational and dependent on many circumstances, but it is the mark of a competent survivalist to understand each rounds'/rifles' strengths and weaknesses to best plan for the worst case.

Very good discussion!!! Better than that computer talk we had up here last week... thank you MOD for deleting that garbage!

[KYOT]

I love the 22lr. A pocketfull of them is a lot of power. Yes, it is in many ways as deadly, or more deadly than a 556 ball, which is also 22 caliber, but 22lr is more likely to fragment and expand within 5" of penetration. Range is a limitation, as is penetration, but there is no "one size does all" in ammunition.
A problem with it, and all marginal rounds, is that it tends to wound it's victims to death. By this, I mean, it is unlikely to immediately incapacitate an attacker, unless the CNS is hit, and if that attacker is armed, will do little to deter them.

KYOT

[mad viking]

ya shure 6.8 is killer acurate. but does it pass the bumfuck test that is wtshtf will you be able to replenish your stock. wen i was a kid we used to poach deer with 22 lr. shure we had to track em doun sometimes but it put meat on the table. 223 is more than acurate enough for the abilitys of the vast majority of shooters. also common. every shooter copcar solder ect has 223. how many 1000s of exotic wunder bullets do you wont to pack around. 223 is not my favorite mankiller but I have seen it waste hodgi and disable regular cars.

[KYOT]

Your point on the 6.8 is well taken. That has been the main objection heard from SF personel, the logistical chore of keeping another round in the supply chaiin. This has also been the problem with the "Designated Marksmen" who get the accurized 16s (and the 223 with a newly standardized round with a sierra 62gr hpbtm). That adds yet another round that has to be supplied. One option would be my Favorite, the 7.62x39 on an AR platform, but then you have magazine issues. There is no single answer, other than the obvious benifits of standardization of ammo in YOUR survival kit.
The 6.8 is available, with premium quality ammo from SSA (Silver State Armory) for a bit over $20 for 20. Add to that, it is reloadable. Premium 223 runs pretty close to that, and AK is generally under $10, but non reloadable with Berdan primers in nearly all of it.
As to the 22, I come from Texas, where I see you hail from Viking. In East, and North Central Texas, there is an unwritten code of gut shooting deer that are harassing crops, with 22Lr hp. The idea here is that while state law allows farmers to protect their crops, they are not allowed to touch the carcass till the Game Warden sees it, and issues a tag. That means, if the deer dies on my land, I have a rotting carcass for 3 days till the warden shows up. Solution? Make sure it dies on somebody elses property, and make sure it leaves my land feeling really bad. I gotta blame this one on state laws, as here in Kansas, any law enforcement can do this, and they take care of it a lot faster.
That said, a 22 in the ear will kill no slower than a 45/70 in the ear
KYOT

[star9mmman]

If you ask me this question, I would have to tell you it is the caliber that you are most comfortable with. Sure .223,7.62x39,6.8, etc are all great even the little .22lr. But the best caliber is the one that you shoot and train with the most. Everyone has there own oppion on the size of the bullet for killing. But that doesn't mean shit if you can't hit what you are aiming at. Taking in to concideration a person who has small kids the .22lr seems to be the way to go. But an older family can shoot what they can handle. Getting ammo stock piled enough for any gun is important. A $60.00 22lr. bought at a pawn shop is just as deadly as a $700.00 Ak if you know where to place the rounds to make them effective. Just because someone can pull a trigger doesn't make them a good shot. Training a shooter takes lots of time and ammo. There are so many calibers out there no one is right or wrong.

[WhiteRaven]

Still with the right shot. And if the ammo was a factoy load or pressed at home the 223 is sitll a kill round as a home defence you will still go in and out of wall's along with the 7.62x39 or the 308. every round can kill. everybody know that body armor is stanard with all LE and Mill. most of all the body armor is is now better than ever. dragon mail armor is becoming the the standard wear for most of th LE and SWAT. so it's not what you shoot. It how you shoot and were you place your shot's. most everyday man on the the street's is not wearing armor. so any round big or small will do the job.

Gut shooting a deer over crops is pretty sorry. Just kill the deer and let the hogs eat it.

[KYOT]

I completely agree. Never did it myself, never had crops in TX. I met a fella who did this, to protect his blackeyed peas. Said the deer could clean out an acre of sprouts in a week. The problem there, as I said, is the fact that wardens can take a week to get out, and you are not even allowed to burn, or bury it. I think you can agree that would be a problem.

Here in Kansas where I now am, you can call any law enforcement, and they will be out in an hour, give you a tag, and you can eat it for dinner. Good in theory, but I still have one horror story from Kansas:
Heading home from night shift one morning, 0445, and tboned a nice buck, around 225lbs. Totaled my taurus wagon completely. I broke all 4 legs, and no doubt caused serious internal injuries to the deer, who only made it as far as the bar ditch from impact (I was going 60mph and did not have time to touch the brakes). Called the cops, first got the Salina city cops, who said it was 300M out of city limits. They called county sherriff, who did not show up till 90minutes after the accident. All this time, the buck was struggling to get up, on it's broken legs. I felt so bad for it, I couldn't even get mad. When the city cops came, I asked them if they could, or give me permission to shoot it, as I had a 9mm under the seat (legal here in Kansas, not in Texas). They said no, wait for sherriff. He showed up, and I made the same request, they said they would do it after the paperwork, which took 30 min. By that time, 2hrs post accident, the buck finally died. I really wanted to let the cop know what the deer went through, if you know what I meam! I was PO'd!! He did give me a tag, but I gave the carcass to the friend I called to come pick me up. That kinda took my appetite for backstrap for a little while!
KYOT

[UrbanMan]

Star9mmMan is right - the best caliber if the one you have, train and are competent with, and have stockpiled ammunition for.

I took some negative comments when I posted comments on Survival Guns on my web site, http://www.urbansurvivalskills.com as I was orienting city or suburban dwellers to buying and owning a gun for the first time, or learning to use the .22 revolver or 12 gauge pump with a 26 inch barrel that they inherited.

If you have a .30-40 Krag and are not willing to get another gun, then you better stock some ammunition for it. I'm telling non-gun people that 200 rounds of center fire rifle ammunition, which is expensive, is a very minimal amount to have on hand. I am advising all the people who ping me with questions that no matter what center fire rifle/carbine you own, or in what caliber, you still need a .22 LR in either a rifle or handgun platform, preferably both. I suggest to them 2,500 rounds in an ammunition can would be a minimal amount to have on hand.

Good topics - good replies.

Most people just are not gun people and do not own several different firearms let alone proficient in anyone of them. The .223 however is a good round for the gun owner owning only one gun, as long if it's in the M4/M16 family. Ammunition and magazines plentiful, and many types of ammunition available from 45 grain frangible to 77 grain Black Hills for different situations and purposes.

It's the gun you have in your hands and the skill you possess that makes the most difference,...just better be planning for a day without the ability to get anymore of anything, let alone ammunition.